On 7/18/21, I won a "WINCHESTER 1897 12 GA SHOTGUN" from Bauer Auction Service for $885.00 on the Hibid online site. It appeared to be structurally perfect in the illustrations. I paid Bauer's shipping service ("Shipping Saints") to have it shipped to NY Police Supply in Rochester, where it arrived some 3.5 weeks later. When the FFL and I unboxed it, the gun was severely cracked. I sent Bauer an email along with a picture of the crack, stating "This needs to be refunded and returned.
The stock is seriously cracked. It did not happen over the course of shipping; it was packaged well and the box is in undamaged condition" and pointing out, "the damage was neither pictured nor described in the listing." You will note, in subsequent responses (documentation attached), the Shipping Director, Ami Rout proceeds to arrive at two brazenly contradictory determinations in back-to-back emails. She offers me two options, either (1) to file an insurance claim with Shipping Saint or (2) to return the firearm at my expense.
Problem is, the first option would require me to perjure myself by swearing that the firearm was "not in a damaged or 'as is' state when purchased" and the second option would require me to incur the loss of $167.17 in shipping and FFL fees because Bauer sold me defective merchandise. I, therefore, requested that she pay for postage to have the piece returned and, upon receiving it, provide a full refund, pointing out that I shouldn't have to pay 167.17 for Bauer's mistake. She refused, stating it was not their policy. Please review the full, original documentation (i.e., the emails sent between us) along with the illustrations I provided to support my claims.
DOCUMENTED EMAILS FROM 8/13/21 TO 8/21/21
NOTE: THERE ARE PICTURES THAT I SENT WITH THE FOLLOWING EMAILS TO VERIFY WHAT I WRITE THAT I AM NOT ABLE TO ATTACH HERE. PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW TO GET THOSE TO YOU.
Me Aug 13, 2021, 2:05 PM to Bauer This needs to be refunded and returned. The stock is seriously cracked. It did not happen over the course of shipping; it was packaged well and the box is in undamaged condition. Moreover, it is obviously an old crack (it has an aged patina throughout, as is clearly apparent in the attached photo) that was neither pictured nor described in the listing. How do you want to proceed? SJM Damage ship Aug 16, 9:37 AM Mr. McWilliams, I have reviewed our original listing. The damage to the firearm you received was not pictured or described because it wasn't there when we sold the gun. If you review the listing in our past auction results, you will see that there are close up pictures of that section of the gun provided, and there is no crack present. Had it been there at the time of listing, we most certainly would have described and pictured the damage.
With that being said, the damage had to have occurred in transit. All purchases are shipped with insurance and all insurance claims are handled directly through Shipping Saint. Please use the link provided below to submit your claim information. [link removed because email addresses are not to be used; the form is available if needed] Thank you, Ami Ruot Shipping Manager Bauer Auction Service, LLC. Me Aug 16, 2:37 PM
to Bauer Ami: The damage did not occur in transit. I've no doubt it was exacerbated over the course of shipping; however, the crack is actually apparent in the illustrations used in the listing. I attached magnified photos from the listing that illustrate it in exact detail. That is not to say that I think Bauer intentionally sold a damaged piece. Without the benefit of a magnified photo, the crack is not casually observable. However, I can't fairly hold Shipping Saints responsible for damage that was incurred prior to shipping. Bottom line, it was well-packaged and there is zero damage to the box.
Incidentally, the fact that it was an old crack was initially noted by our FFL, Mike, the owner of New York Police Supply, immediately after it was unboxed. Thank you. Silas J. McWilliams Damage ship August 16, 2021, 3:03 PM Mr. McWilliams, At this point, your entire transaction has been a disappointment for you and has harbored nothing but complaints with our service. Our pictures in the listing clearly showed the condition of the gun at the time it was sold. If you were concerned about the crack that was, in your words, "apparent in the illustrations used in the listing", you had the option not to bid on the gun.
If the "crack" was exacerbated during shipping, that would still fall under the responsibility of an insurance claim. If you do not agree with that statement and do not wish to file an insurance claim, you are welcome to return the firearm at your expense for a full refund of your purchase price and buyer's premium. Those are your options. If you choose to return the firearm, please let me know so I can watch for the return package. Thank you, Ami Ruot Shipping Manager Bauer Auction Service, LLC Me Aug 19, 2021, 3:00 AM
to Bauer That's true, Ami, I did respond that "the crack is actually apparent in the illustrations used in the listing" just before adding "I attached magnified photos from the listing that illustrate it in exact detail." I then pointed out that, "Without the benefit of a magnified photo, the crack is not casually observable." You left those parts out. Now let's consider your responses: Your initial response was, "I have reviewed our original listing. The damage to the firearm you received was not pictured or described because it wasn't there when we sold the gun. If you review the listing in our past auction results, you will see that there are close up pictures of that section of the gun provided, and there is no crack present." So I followed the directive in your determination.
I did review the close-up pictures and found, by magnifying them even more, that your determination was wrong. The crack was pre-existing. After I presented you with the magnified evidence, you immediately did an about-face, asserting, "Our pictures in the listing clearly showed the condition of the gun at the time it was sold." So which is it, Ami? When you reviewed the listing, you incorrectly determined there was no crack, even after you were given a photo of where to look for the crack. How could you possibly maintain, thereafter, that "the listing clearly showed the condition of the gun"? You can't have it both ways: either there's "no crack present" or the crack is "clearly" illustrated. Contradicting yourself in an attempt to justify polar opposite determinations is a brazen violation of ethics that, I would hope, is not a reflection of Bauer Auction House.
Moreover, you begin your latest response to me with the lamentation, "At this point, your entire transaction has been a disappointment for you and has harbored nothing but complaints with our service." Again, that is true. As I correctly pointed out, your compulsory "Shipping Saints" delivery service overcharges and underperforms. If you're going to add an additional $15.00 "packaging fee" to your 50.00 shipping fee, you should ship within days, not weeks, following the receipt of payment. Since all of your competitors are able to ship more quickly and less expensively, that is a legitimate complaint. A customer -- especially one who has paid hundreds of dollars for an item -- has a right to complain when the seller overcharges on compulsory shipping, takes weeks to ship, sends him a broken gun, and then attempts to misrepresent it.
Incidentally, the $50.00 FFL fee we paid is non-refundable. As to your prescribed remedy, that I should either (1) file an insurance claim with Shipping Saint or (2) return the firearm at my expense, neither of those are acceptable options. Option 1, the Shipping Saint claim would require me to perjure myself by saying that the firearm was "not in a damaged or 'as is' state when purchased" and to sign off with a legal affirmation "that the information entered on this form is accurate and correct." After Shipping Saint rejects my claim, as rightfully it should, I'd be guilty of making a false statement and I'd be left with no recourse. Option 2, returning the firearm "at my expense," would mean that, by the time I have been "refunded," I will have lost over $160.00 ($67.00 Shipping Saint; $50.00 FFL fee; $50.00 in return shipping fees) because of your error.
I am, therefore, writing to formally request that you pay for postage to have the piece returned and immediately provide me with a refund for the item thereafter. It's unfortunate that I have to ask. You sold me a firearm which, as I have been able to prove, was not properly described or illustrated in the listing. Neither ethically nor legally should I have to bear the risk of loss for your failure to properly inspect and represent the item. It is unusable. You should have offered to cover the losses I've incurred as a result. Now if you can't get past the fact that I've complained to issue me a proper refund, that's fine. Just kindly put me in touch with somebody at Bauer who can.
I'm sure there must be one because, to date, Bauer has no record with the Better Business Bureau. Somebody there understands not only that customers have the right to complain, but also that ethics and reason are essential to succeeding in business. Nobody wants to buy from a seller that cannot be trusted. Thank you. Silas J. McWilliams c: JEM Damage ship Aug 19, 9:40 AM Mr. McWilliams, I will not continue to argue with you. I have given you your two options, which were the options I was told to give you by our owner/auctioneer [emphasis mine, SJM], Hank Bauer. File your claim or return your gun. We do not pay return shipping. I will forward all of your correspondence to my office manager and she can deal with your issues from here on out, as you have not been pleased with me from the start of your concerns. Ami Me Aug 19, 2021, 7:06 PM Ami, I have no choice but to respond to the job that you're doing. To assert that I "have not been pleased" with you because I reasonably disagree with your responses is an indication you are trying to make my complaint sound personal. When a customer complains, it's not a personal attack. You must know that; your employer definitely knows that. You do, however, seem intent on framing it as one. I'm beginning to wonder if that's not by design.
So far, Bauer Auction House has been dismissive of my concerns, lied to me, and required me either to perjure myself or to accept a $175.00 loss for its mistake. It's offered no apology; nor has it acknowledged its brazen maltreatment of my claim. Even the most tolerant of customers would be outraged. Again, you know that, as does Hank Bauer, from whom you state you received "the options." I see today where Bauer sent me two exact same notifications (both in bold print): "Bidder not approved: Your request to leave bids at our auction has been declined. You have been permanently disallowed to leave bids." So your strategy is to gaslight customers who have the temerity to complain into an angry tirade so that you can frame that as the real issue. There are no legitimate complaints, just angry, unreasonable customers, right?
Except I didn't take the bait. You've just been dishonest and abusive. That is what the documentation shows. Now, please give me the refund to which, based upon the indisputable facts, I am fairly entitled. Again, thank you.
Silas McWilliams Damage ship
Aug 20, 9:30 AM Sir I will issue your refund as soon as you return the firearm to us. This has been clearly outlined for you twice now and will not be handled any other way. Return the gun, get the refund. Me Aug 20, 12:03 PM
to Bauer Ami and Company: Again, and for the final time, I should not have to absorb the expense of shipping and FFL fees because of your error. If you refuse to resolve the issue in a fair manner today, I will file a *formal complaint tomorrow with the Illinois Attorney General, Kwame Raoul, specifically the Division of Consumer Protection, which protects Illinois consumers and businesses victimized by fraud, deception, and unfair business practices. I'll let the documentation do the talking. Concomitantly, because we are located in different states, I'll be filing online with the New York State Attorney General, Letitia James, specifically the Division of Consumer Complaints. Thank you.
* As the online complaint portal is currently down. I will submit this complaint by mail on a form downloaded from their website.
Silas J. McWilliams Damage ship
Aug 20, 2:04 PM Sir: I will issue your refund as soon as you return the firearm to us. This has been clearly outlined for you twice now and will not be handled any other way. Return the gun, get the refund. Me Aug 20, 2:19 PM
to Bauer Ami and Company: A & Co: Perjuring myself to make a claim with Shipping Saints, as I already clarified, is not an acceptable option. Thank you.
SJM Damage ship
Aug 20, 5:09 PM
Then return the gun or file your complaints. Your previous threats don't change our policy. Me Aug 20, 5:35 PM Your policy is dishonest. I'll file my complaints. SJM Damage ship
Aug 20, 6:50 PM Perfect. Should I watch for the gun to be returned or will you be keeping your firearm? Me Aug 20, 8:05 PM
I'm done repeating myself.
ship
Aug 21, 11:29 AM
Then I will assume you are not returning the firearm since you don't want to pay the shipping. If that is the case, please be aware, you do not get to change your mind at a later date for a return/refund. If you are not returning the gun now when the issue has been brought to our attention, you will not be returning it at all. We are happy to handle refunds when the issue is brought to our attention, but not months down the line when you decide to make a decision. If you do not provide a tracking number over the next week to let me know the gun is on the way here, we will not be issuing a refund.
Bauer Auction Service, LLC Reviews
On 7/18/21, I won a "WINCHESTER 1897 12 GA SHOTGUN" from Bauer Auction Service for $885.00 on the Hibid online site. It appeared to be structurally perfect in the illustrations. I paid Bauer's shipping service ("Shipping Saints") to have it shipped to NY Police Supply in Rochester, where it arrived some 3.5 weeks later. When the FFL and I unboxed it, the gun was severely cracked. I sent Bauer an email along with a picture of the crack, stating "This needs to be refunded and returned.
The stock is seriously cracked. It did not happen over the course of shipping; it was packaged well and the box is in undamaged condition" and pointing out, "the damage was neither pictured nor described in the listing." You will note, in subsequent responses (documentation attached), the Shipping Director, Ami Rout proceeds to arrive at two brazenly contradictory determinations in back-to-back emails. She offers me two options, either (1) to file an insurance claim with Shipping Saint or (2) to return the firearm at my expense.
Problem is, the first option would require me to perjure myself by swearing that the firearm was "not in a damaged or 'as is' state when purchased" and the second option would require me to incur the loss of $167.17 in shipping and FFL fees because Bauer sold me defective merchandise. I, therefore, requested that she pay for postage to have the piece returned and, upon receiving it, provide a full refund, pointing out that I shouldn't have to pay 167.17 for Bauer's mistake. She refused, stating it was not their policy. Please review the full, original documentation (i.e., the emails sent between us) along with the illustrations I provided to support my claims.
DOCUMENTED EMAILS FROM 8/13/21 TO 8/21/21
NOTE: THERE ARE PICTURES THAT I SENT WITH THE FOLLOWING EMAILS TO VERIFY WHAT I WRITE THAT I AM NOT ABLE TO ATTACH HERE. PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW TO GET THOSE TO YOU.
Me Aug 13, 2021, 2:05 PM to Bauer This needs to be refunded and returned. The stock is seriously cracked. It did not happen over the course of shipping; it was packaged well and the box is in undamaged condition. Moreover, it is obviously an old crack (it has an aged patina throughout, as is clearly apparent in the attached photo) that was neither pictured nor described in the listing. How do you want to proceed? SJM Damage ship Aug 16, 9:37 AM Mr. McWilliams, I have reviewed our original listing. The damage to the firearm you received was not pictured or described because it wasn't there when we sold the gun. If you review the listing in our past auction results, you will see that there are close up pictures of that section of the gun provided, and there is no crack present. Had it been there at the time of listing, we most certainly would have described and pictured the damage.
With that being said, the damage had to have occurred in transit. All purchases are shipped with insurance and all insurance claims are handled directly through Shipping Saint. Please use the link provided below to submit your claim information. [link removed because email addresses are not to be used; the form is available if needed] Thank you, Ami Ruot Shipping Manager Bauer Auction Service, LLC. Me Aug 16, 2:37 PM
to Bauer Ami: The damage did not occur in transit. I've no doubt it was exacerbated over the course of shipping; however, the crack is actually apparent in the illustrations used in the listing. I attached magnified photos from the listing that illustrate it in exact detail. That is not to say that I think Bauer intentionally sold a damaged piece. Without the benefit of a magnified photo, the crack is not casually observable. However, I can't fairly hold Shipping Saints responsible for damage that was incurred prior to shipping. Bottom line, it was well-packaged and there is zero damage to the box.
Incidentally, the fact that it was an old crack was initially noted by our FFL, Mike, the owner of New York Police Supply, immediately after it was unboxed. Thank you. Silas J. McWilliams Damage ship August 16, 2021, 3:03 PM Mr. McWilliams, At this point, your entire transaction has been a disappointment for you and has harbored nothing but complaints with our service. Our pictures in the listing clearly showed the condition of the gun at the time it was sold. If you were concerned about the crack that was, in your words, "apparent in the illustrations used in the listing", you had the option not to bid on the gun.
If the "crack" was exacerbated during shipping, that would still fall under the responsibility of an insurance claim. If you do not agree with that statement and do not wish to file an insurance claim, you are welcome to return the firearm at your expense for a full refund of your purchase price and buyer's premium. Those are your options. If you choose to return the firearm, please let me know so I can watch for the return package. Thank you, Ami Ruot Shipping Manager Bauer Auction Service, LLC Me Aug 19, 2021, 3:00 AM
to Bauer That's true, Ami, I did respond that "the crack is actually apparent in the illustrations used in the listing" just before adding "I attached magnified photos from the listing that illustrate it in exact detail." I then pointed out that, "Without the benefit of a magnified photo, the crack is not casually observable." You left those parts out. Now let's consider your responses: Your initial response was, "I have reviewed our original listing. The damage to the firearm you received was not pictured or described because it wasn't there when we sold the gun. If you review the listing in our past auction results, you will see that there are close up pictures of that section of the gun provided, and there is no crack present." So I followed the directive in your determination.
I did review the close-up pictures and found, by magnifying them even more, that your determination was wrong. The crack was pre-existing. After I presented you with the magnified evidence, you immediately did an about-face, asserting, "Our pictures in the listing clearly showed the condition of the gun at the time it was sold." So which is it, Ami? When you reviewed the listing, you incorrectly determined there was no crack, even after you were given a photo of where to look for the crack. How could you possibly maintain, thereafter, that "the listing clearly showed the condition of the gun"? You can't have it both ways: either there's "no crack present" or the crack is "clearly" illustrated. Contradicting yourself in an attempt to justify polar opposite determinations is a brazen violation of ethics that, I would hope, is not a reflection of Bauer Auction House.
Moreover, you begin your latest response to me with the lamentation, "At this point, your entire transaction has been a disappointment for you and has harbored nothing but complaints with our service." Again, that is true. As I correctly pointed out, your compulsory "Shipping Saints" delivery service overcharges and underperforms. If you're going to add an additional $15.00 "packaging fee" to your 50.00 shipping fee, you should ship within days, not weeks, following the receipt of payment. Since all of your competitors are able to ship more quickly and less expensively, that is a legitimate complaint. A customer -- especially one who has paid hundreds of dollars for an item -- has a right to complain when the seller overcharges on compulsory shipping, takes weeks to ship, sends him a broken gun, and then attempts to misrepresent it.
Incidentally, the $50.00 FFL fee we paid is non-refundable. As to your prescribed remedy, that I should either (1) file an insurance claim with Shipping Saint or (2) return the firearm at my expense, neither of those are acceptable options. Option 1, the Shipping Saint claim would require me to perjure myself by saying that the firearm was "not in a damaged or 'as is' state when purchased" and to sign off with a legal affirmation "that the information entered on this form is accurate and correct." After Shipping Saint rejects my claim, as rightfully it should, I'd be guilty of making a false statement and I'd be left with no recourse. Option 2, returning the firearm "at my expense," would mean that, by the time I have been "refunded," I will have lost over $160.00 ($67.00 Shipping Saint; $50.00 FFL fee; $50.00 in return shipping fees) because of your error.
I am, therefore, writing to formally request that you pay for postage to have the piece returned and immediately provide me with a refund for the item thereafter. It's unfortunate that I have to ask. You sold me a firearm which, as I have been able to prove, was not properly described or illustrated in the listing. Neither ethically nor legally should I have to bear the risk of loss for your failure to properly inspect and represent the item. It is unusable. You should have offered to cover the losses I've incurred as a result. Now if you can't get past the fact that I've complained to issue me a proper refund, that's fine. Just kindly put me in touch with somebody at Bauer who can.
I'm sure there must be one because, to date, Bauer has no record with the Better Business Bureau. Somebody there understands not only that customers have the right to complain, but also that ethics and reason are essential to succeeding in business. Nobody wants to buy from a seller that cannot be trusted. Thank you. Silas J. McWilliams c: JEM Damage ship Aug 19, 9:40 AM Mr. McWilliams, I will not continue to argue with you. I have given you your two options, which were the options I was told to give you by our owner/auctioneer [emphasis mine, SJM], Hank Bauer. File your claim or return your gun. We do not pay return shipping. I will forward all of your correspondence to my office manager and she can deal with your issues from here on out, as you have not been pleased with me from the start of your concerns. Ami Me Aug 19, 2021, 7:06 PM Ami, I have no choice but to respond to the job that you're doing. To assert that I "have not been pleased" with you because I reasonably disagree with your responses is an indication you are trying to make my complaint sound personal. When a customer complains, it's not a personal attack. You must know that; your employer definitely knows that. You do, however, seem intent on framing it as one. I'm beginning to wonder if that's not by design.
So far, Bauer Auction House has been dismissive of my concerns, lied to me, and required me either to perjure myself or to accept a $175.00 loss for its mistake. It's offered no apology; nor has it acknowledged its brazen maltreatment of my claim. Even the most tolerant of customers would be outraged. Again, you know that, as does Hank Bauer, from whom you state you received "the options." I see today where Bauer sent me two exact same notifications (both in bold print): "Bidder not approved: Your request to leave bids at our auction has been declined. You have been permanently disallowed to leave bids." So your strategy is to gaslight customers who have the temerity to complain into an angry tirade so that you can frame that as the real issue. There are no legitimate complaints, just angry, unreasonable customers, right?
Except I didn't take the bait. You've just been dishonest and abusive. That is what the documentation shows. Now, please give me the refund to which, based upon the indisputable facts, I am fairly entitled. Again, thank you.
Silas McWilliams Damage ship
Aug 20, 9:30 AM Sir I will issue your refund as soon as you return the firearm to us. This has been clearly outlined for you twice now and will not be handled any other way. Return the gun, get the refund. Me Aug 20, 12:03 PM
to Bauer Ami and Company: Again, and for the final time, I should not have to absorb the expense of shipping and FFL fees because of your error. If you refuse to resolve the issue in a fair manner today, I will file a *formal complaint tomorrow with the Illinois Attorney General, Kwame Raoul, specifically the Division of Consumer Protection, which protects Illinois consumers and businesses victimized by fraud, deception, and unfair business practices. I'll let the documentation do the talking. Concomitantly, because we are located in different states, I'll be filing online with the New York State Attorney General, Letitia James, specifically the Division of Consumer Complaints. Thank you.
* As the online complaint portal is currently down. I will submit this complaint by mail on a form downloaded from their website.
Silas J. McWilliams Damage ship
Aug 20, 2:04 PM Sir: I will issue your refund as soon as you return the firearm to us. This has been clearly outlined for you twice now and will not be handled any other way. Return the gun, get the refund. Me Aug 20, 2:19 PM
to Bauer Ami and Company: A & Co: Perjuring myself to make a claim with Shipping Saints, as I already clarified, is not an acceptable option. Thank you.
SJM Damage ship
Aug 20, 5:09 PM
Then return the gun or file your complaints. Your previous threats don't change our policy. Me Aug 20, 5:35 PM Your policy is dishonest. I'll file my complaints. SJM Damage ship
Aug 20, 6:50 PM Perfect. Should I watch for the gun to be returned or will you be keeping your firearm? Me Aug 20, 8:05 PM
I'm done repeating myself.
ship
Aug 21, 11:29 AM
Then I will assume you are not returning the firearm since you don't want to pay the shipping. If that is the case, please be aware, you do not get to change your mind at a later date for a return/refund. If you are not returning the gun now when the issue has been brought to our attention, you will not be returning it at all. We are happy to handle refunds when the issue is brought to our attention, but not months down the line when you decide to make a decision. If you do not provide a tracking number over the next week to let me know the gun is on the way here, we will not be issuing a refund.